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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2003 :  3:34:14 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WHERE SHALL WE STAND?

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen. Hadrianus here. Despite my often irreverent and sometimes silly sense of humor on this Forum, I want to stress that this post is entirely serious.

I apologize beforehand to you all, but especially to you ELRICK, for posting this topic since it clearly is far outside the bounds of the focus of this Forum, which is to say, it has very little or nothing to do with Aliens or UFO’s.

That, of course, hasn’t stopped me from ranting about politics before. But this is the first time I am requesting some sort of political interaction from the members of the Forum.

Interaction on what? On this question of Iraq.

I think this is important, and cannot be dodged. What we as a group think or say will not, in itself, affect anything, but if we share our viewpoints we might become a little clearer on what is happening. None of us, not even me, live in a vacuum. Once we are clearer about what we think, we will communicate it to those around us, not just those on this Forum. This in turn might have a ‘ripple effect’ and result in a much wider influence than may at first be obvious.

And I think that we should do that, because it is very important right now to embrace a certain responsibility every Human being who can read these words has. What responsibility? The World, like it or not, is coming together. Communication, overpopulation and technology are making this a much smaller planet. We are all, the Human race, a community now.

The responsibility I’m speaking of is for each of us to contribute our opinions as to how this World community should act. The way those in power act now in no small way will determine what this planet will be like in the coming decades. Do not think that if this responsibility to speak out is shirked everything will just turn out all right in the end. It might. Or it might not. And from what I see of the men who have control of policy and resources on this world, they are a bunch of selfish, ignorant and irresponsible people. If we, you and I, just let them go and do what they want without even trying to influence them, even in some very small way, this World, I firmly believe, is doomed.

Do you want that? Do you want your children to live in increasing despair about the future? Do you want your grandchildren to live in misery, want and pain? Do you want your great-grandchildren to live at all?

If such things matter to you, then you better take heed of what is happening right now and decide what your stand on it is.

Of course, if you don’t care, well…..

So I’m going to talk about Iraq and I’m going to make a few requests. I just wanted to give you fair warning.

I saw an interesting program on the BBC today sent from a conference being held in Switzerland. At that conference are influential people from many parts of the world. Several Prime ministers, the heads of a number of UN organizations, religious leaders, even the owner of ‘Forbes’ magazine.

The program itself was a sort of ‘round table’ discussion (although, due to the number of people involved there was no round table) about what the United States is saying, and proposing to do, about Iraq.

Representing the views of the United States was a senior member of the State Department, as well as the owner of ‘Forbes’.

All sorts of issues were discussed. For instance, the Foreign Secretary of the Australian Government was asked about the recent deployment of Australian forces to join the Americans and British in the Middle East. He was asked if the opinion of the Australian public supported such a move.

He carefully avoided answering that question, talking instead about the deployment of military forces being a “credible threat” to get the Government of Iraq to do the will of the International community. Typical Politician. Never answers a direct question.

One got the definite impression from his slimy performance that the Australian public does NOT support the deployment of troops.

The Moderator (Nick Gowing of the BBC) went on to point out that the anti-war demonstrations are growing and that there seems to be a consensus in the International Community that, unless further credible evidence is produced against Iraq, there is simply no moral reason for a War.

The EX-Australian Foreign Secretary was then allowed to speak, and he, as a private citizen, pointed out that no matter what the Intelligence Agencies of any country (and it was clear he was referring to the United States and to Britain) said about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction, it was his (the ex-Foreign Minister’s) experience while he had been in the government of Australia that the information provided by ‘Intelligence Agencies’ should rarely, if ever, be trusted. He then went on to criticize the US for even considering ignoring the UN if the UN decides to wait on whether to invade Iraq. Going without UN sanction against Iraq, he said, would be for the US to break International Law just as much as the US says Iraq has. Then who would be the criminal? Saddam? Bush? He also pointed out that the US position that the burden is on Iraq to prove it has no weapons of mass destruction is ridiculous. “We all know” he said “that it is next to impossible to ‘prove’ a negative.”

The representative of the US State Department was then asked what he thought about that. He carefully avoided answering the question, and instead, obviously reciting a list of arguments that he had worked out beforehand, said that the United States had a duty to implement UN Security Council resolution 1441 if Saddam Hussein (not, you will note, the Government of Iraq) fails to prove that he has no weapons of mass destruction. (By the way, resolution 1441, although it calls on Saddam to come clean, does NOT say that it is up to the US to decide if Iraq has complied with the Resolution, NOR does it say that the US has permission to invade Iraq). If it was ‘necessary’ for an “American” coalition to perform this task, said Mr. State Department, the US was ready to do it’s ‘duty’. (I would also note that Colin Powell in recent days has been going around saying to everyone that if America invades Iraq, it will be at the head of a coalition of “at least” 12 nations. But he never says which nations. From my own count, I would say most of the Anglo-Saxon nations, certainly Britain and Australia, even maybe Canada, maybe not, will go along with the US. Also, without question, Israel. But that makes only the US and 4 other countries. Which are the rest? Panama? South Korea? It’s not like the countries which have declared against this war - France, Germany, Russia and China - are little nobodies). By innuendo Powell has let it be known that if the UN does not sanction George W. Bush’s interpretation of the situation, and does not sanction a war, it is a bunch of wimps who are not really important anyway.

The US Representative was then RE-asked whether it was not significant that most of the rest of the World thinks there is not enough evidence against Iraq yet to justify a War?

He said that the United States would make the evidence it has against Iraq available at ‘an appropriate time’. He hinted that this might be during President Bush’s State of the Union address on Tuesday. But then he entirely reversed himself and said that people should not expect evidence in the way of photographs or concrete proof. It’s “little bits” that have to be “put together” to get an “idea of trends” he said. Besides, the burden is on Saddam Hussein, he said again, to prove that he has no weapons of mass destruction.

In other words, the United States Government has no such evidence, only the hints and innuendo from it’s Intelligence Agencies, which the ex-Australian Foreign Secretary had basically labeled as useless anyway.

The focus of the discussion then shifted to the moral issue, which clearly made the US representative uncomfortable. The Bishop of Oslo pointed out that war kills innocent people (and mentioning THAT, in the halls of government, is, as we all know, a no-no. You just don’t mention that.) The Bishop asked what was being done to ensure that the United States, in it’s zeal to get rid of Saddam Hussein, didn’t kill a lot of innocent people?

The Head of one of the UN Humanitarian Agencies then asked what was being done to plan for the aftermath of this proposed war? Were the children going to freeze to death again in the Mountains? Were the babies and the old people going to starve again, like last time? The whole population of Iraq is already in very poor physical shape because they have been methodically starved for the last 10 years by the sanctions which have been imposed by the UN (at American insistence). What, the State Department man was asked, about the poor Iraqi people?

Well, said Mr. State Department, all the problems that the Iraqi people have suffered are Saddam’s fault. The US had nothing to do with it, he said, (drawing looks of anger, disbelief, and impolite laughter from the crowd). Besides, he said, the US is concerned first and foremost with the welfare of the Iraqi people. All the military planning, he said, has been centered on a concern not to kill too many. After all, he said, modern weapons are very accurate, but if Saddam insists on hiding weapons of mass destruction inside schools, no one should be surprised if the US is forced to kill thousands of Iraqi kids. It’s all very scientific, and everyone who doesn’t understand that is an idiot anyway, he implied.

Mr. Forbes, in the audience, was then asked for his two cents’ worth. He said that the US doesn’t need the UN, that the UN is unimportant to the World anyway, and that America should just go where it pleased and do what it wanted. This little statement caused the Russian representative (who was seated right next to him) to drop his jaw in disbelief, and then break out in incredulous laughter.

Another head of another UN Humanitarian agency was then asked about whether there will be a refugee problem if the United States goes ahead with it’s plans for war. She said there would be a disaster.

The Prime Minister of Turkey chimed in that after the ’91 war the United States had, in effect, washed it’s hands of the refugee question and half a million refugees had flooded into Turkey. Turkey had fed and housed these people, without any help from the United States. He did not want that to happen again.

Mr. State Department then addressed this question by saying that ‘Humanitarian planning’ was central to the US plan to kill Iraqis, and that no one should worry about refugees.

(At the same conference, but outside the auditorium, Colin Powell also said the same thing, that the United States is on top of the refugee problem it is planning to cause.

The BBC then interviewed the Head of the UN refugee agency, which would be in charge of handling the welfare of such people.

“Has any government approached you about how to handle such a problem, or have they given you any resources?” he was asked.

“No” he said. “They will wait to see if such a problem arises. Then they will begin to give their excuses.”

So, basically, Colin Powell is a liar.)


It appears to me that the BBC has (finally) gained some perspective on this whole mess, and has decided that murdering innocent people so that some very rich men can become richer is probably wrong (or at least it is now socially acceptable to make a show of thinking that such behavior is probably wrong.) So now the BBC is leaning against war.

Why do I think this?

Two things: 1) Today, for the first time, the BBC commentator began to refer to Colin Powell not as “Mr.” Powell, or as “Secretary” Powell. No, the commentator kept calling him “General” Powell. Which, of course, although for some time no one has seen fit to mention it, is correct.

This may seem subtle, but in the world of broadcasting, it is, I believe, significant. War is near, and people are beginng to distance themselves from responsibility for the horror and death about to happen by pointing at others.

Let there be no mistake, Colin Powell is no dove. He is cautious, yes, and to a degree intelligent. But he made his career as a military man, and his primary training is in killing people.

The second thing I noticed was 2) an interview with Tony Blair, which probably would never have been shown if the BBC was pro-war. In that interview, Blair was his usual wishy-washy self, trying to have his cake and eat it too. While insisting that a show of force was necessary to scare Saddam, Blair acknowledged that the UN inspectors need time to determine if Iraq is “in compliance” with the UN resolution, thereby endorsing the authority of the UN and backing away from the American position that the US and Britain can go it alone. He seems to be backpedaling. Why? I think Blair is so unbelievably stupid that only now, when the troops are marching, the fleets are sailing, the bombs are loading, and his own people are calling for his blood, that he realizes Bush was serious all along. And that scares him. What has he gotten himself into? He didn’t look at all resolved in that interview. I don’t think the BBC would have broadcast such a thing unless Blair gave his go-ahead. This in turn means that perhaps the worm has turned, and we are now about to see some objective reporting for a change.

That would certainly be refreshing.

Back to the Conference - The head of the Arab League then restated his position that a War would entirely destabilize the Middle East, and “would open the gates of Hell”.

The State Department man simply ignored this opinion. Obviously, since the head of the Arab League is an Arab, Arab opinion is completely beneath American notice.

Then, the opinion of an “expert” was sought. This was a man who was called an “expert” because he had written a book in favor of the 1991 Gulf War.

The “expert” gave an opinion that, although war is bad, it is a useful tool, and sometimes it is good too.

This observer got the impression that Mr. “expert” had spent his life in a study, had never seen a child cut in half by shrapnel take 5 minutes to die, and who thought that the numbers of thousands of dead men routinely cited in military histories were no more significant than the scores run up on video games.

Unfortunately, I got the impression that many of these men, who otherwise came across as intelligent, and who control much of what happens to ordinary people like you and me, thought of War as a justifiable Political Tool that has it’s uses.

Tell that to the Mother who has to bury her five children after a bombing raid.

But I realize that most people, having never seen a war, don’t know what it really is. They just know what they read. So I don’t expect anyone to agree with me that War is just plain Evil, and however justifiable it may be to defend oneself, it is NEVER justifiable under ANY circumstances to START a War. NEVER.

But I do believe (I want to believe) that the majority of people have a standard for starting a war. They don’t think of it as a game (as the British did until WWI taught them Reality) or as an administrative tool. They think there has to be some real justification for going to War.

And well, so what? What does it matter what the majority of the adult population thinks? It’s not like any of us live in a Democracy. We all live under Oligarchies, most of which hide behind a façade of Democracy. The men who make up these Oligarchies (and I would propose that most of these Oligarchies have now banded together into a massive Cabal) are purely selfish. Not only that, they are also astonishingly ignorant. Many of the things they do not only injure other people, but they injure themselves in the long run. But they don’t care and they do what they want on the principle of “I do what I want, and no one can tell me different”.

However, like I said, there are ripple effects. No one lives in a vacuum. Public opinion does have some power.

So, here is what I am requesting.

ELRICK: I must ask this of you because no one else here can do it. I know that the Forum has set up a voting mechanism before. Would you do so again?

Here are the questions I propose:

Has sufficient evidence been shown so far to justify a military attack on Iraq?

If the UN Security Council clearly decides that there should not be an attack on Iraq in the near future, should the United States go ahead and attack Iraq anyway?

Before there is any attack by the United States on Iraq, does the American Government have a moral responsibility to clearly demonstrate that it is prepared to care for all the refugees any attack will cause?

Under what circumstances is War morally justifiable?


I think these are important questions that all adults on the Planet who have any awareness of these issues should be thinking about and should make up their minds about.

You know (in an attempt to put a good face on a bad situation) there might be something worthwhile in all this.

During the Vietnam War I recall there was considerable public debate, not just debate among scholars or philosophers, but the average shmoe on the street, about what War was, and what moral issues were involved on all levels with the concept of War. Yet, almost as soon as Dick Nixon self-destructed and the US withdrew whining from Vietnam, these discussions largely stopped. Public interest in the questions involved waned, and for a number of years, nothing at all was mentioned on the subject.

Neither did the Gulf War do much to spark any debate. It was fast. It was cheap. If it doesn’t hurt, why pay attention?

But now we have another chance, and, for once, the whole world is involved. During Vietnam there was a general, although by no means universal, consensus that aggressive war is not good. It is bad, and nothing can make it good.

Now, George W. Bush (who after all hid from the Vietnam War in Texas, and so learned nothing at all) proposes to implement a new concept in American Foreign Policy (actually, it’s an old concept, discredited hundreds of times over the centuries) which he calls “Pre-emptive War”. In this concept, one nation launches a war against another nation, claiming that the other nation was “planning” to launch war first. In this way, a war of aggression is presented as a war of defense.

Old idea. Hitler used it when he invaded Poland. He claimed that Poland had attacked Germany first.

It’s a lame excuse, that’s all.

But the fact that America is now so powerful militarily that no one can stand up to her has gotten a lot of people thinking about Bush’s new policy.

And we all should too.

I hope that in the very near future the Human Race, having finally thought about what the heck it has been doing killing each other for the last 6,000 years, will come to the conclusion that War is simply wrong, for any reason.

I can hope, can’t I?

Anyway, you all know where I stand on this Iraqi question. I have never been shy about it.

But I do not want to try and make up anyone else’s mind (oh, all right, I do. But I can’t).

Does anyone else have an opinion on these things?

Does anyone else agree that we should have a vote?

Does anyone else want to propose other questions to vote on?

Am I just an inebriated old Yeti living in a Jungle cave? (Sorry, I promised to be serious).

All of you, especially you ELRICK, since you have control here, do you think I am out of line?

Should I just shut up?

I have seen too much suffering in this life. Suffering is very common on this planet. Much of it is needless and caused by ignorance. But I can live with that.

However, much more suffering is caused on purpose for selfish reasons. I have great difficulty with that.

Shouldn’t we talk about it? Especially if there is just the remotest outside chance that our talking about it might reduce anyone’s suffering by some miniscule degree?

Hadrianus here. Yeti on the edge.



(PS… IF any Alien race is watching this sorry planet in any detail, they probably are waiting to see how the world handles this little glitch. Gee, I hope we get passing marks.)


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greymatter
Reptilian Member

United Kingdom
260 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2003 :  7:58:28 PM  Show Profile Send greymatter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am fully with you on this one Hadrianus.

When you start killing other peoples children, it doesn't matter what your reasoning is. Some of the descendants of those people are one day going to get yours too. Maybe not this year or next year, maybe not even the next decade, but you can be sure that you are taking part in a cycle of resentment that guarantees never-ending insecurity for us all.

The USA has 10,600 nuclear warheads - more than the rest of the world put together, including Russia and North Korea. Britain has a pipsqueak but still appalling 200 and is apparently ready to use them 'tactically' - so says Tony Blair, who I am now ashamed to say I voted for in the last election. The UN inspectors have found NO evidence of Saddams nuclear stockpile yet we are willing to pay 'the blood price' (Blairs words).

I fear that the USA is one day going to get a shock far bigger than 9/11. But at least this time it won't be wondering why.

Without being too dispiriting or sentimental, I thought I would post this Carl Sagan quote, which you probably all know but what the hell. Nothing sums up the stupidity and tragedy better than this.

******************************************

We succeeded in taking that picture [from deep space], and, if you look at it, you see a dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever lived, lived out their lives. The aggregate of all our joys and sufferings, thousands of confident religions, ideologies and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lived there on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.

The earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us. It's been said that astronomy is a humbling, and I might add, a character-building experience. To my mind, there is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly and compassionately with one another and to preserve and cherish that pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.

GM



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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2003 :  6:44:55 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Greymatter.

Speaking of Tony the Poodle, I wonder if he ever has had to watch another person die in agony because of something Tony did?

Dubya never has, I know, because he did his best to shirk the Vietnam War.

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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2003 :  6:08:25 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
THE STATE OF CONFUSION


As all of you loyal Americans undoubtedly know, der Fuehrer addressed der Reichstag Tuesday night und told the craven, ignorant, inferior rest of the World how he was determined to be determined and would not allow anyone to disagree with him. All the obedient deputies stood on cue (many times) to deliver their well-rehearsed ovations. Such joy. Such Faith. Such will! Ve vill prevail! Seig!

Well, now it’s official. There IS NO evidence supporting the Will to War. Innuendo, yes. Rumor, yes. Lies, yes. Truth, no. Justice, no. Compassion, no.

Hail Bush! Let’s go kill people! What fun! (Isn’t this the same attitude that founded the British Empire? Bup, bup old bean!)

Der Prezident did make some points. One was that he doesn’t trust Saddam Hussein. Other points were, for instance, that many years ago Saddam Hussein killed children and babies. Another, that his enemies don’t like him. Or, that some time ago Saddam had weapons just like Britain, and the US, and Russia and Israel still do. (In fact, he got those weapons from Britain, the US and Russia.) These weapons haven’t been seen for a while. Saddam says he got rid of them a long time ago. The very professional weapons inspectors working for the UN (well, they want to THINK they are professional, but after all, they’re foreigners) have seen no evidence that Saddam has these weapons any more. But, says der President, he MIGHT. So that justifies the United States going in there and killing more children and babies. After all, it’s Saddam’s fault. He is FORCING the United States to do this. “I forgive you all” said the President. “Go, free of Sin. I exculpate you.”

However, God won’t.

George Walker Bush is the Devil’s Pied Piper. He pipes the merry tune and all fools follow him, dancing, down, down, down into Hell.

My God, I thought I was watching a Hollywood political horror movie where the United States is seized by a power-mad group of Neo-nazi religious fanatics.

But it’s not a movie. God, forgive America.

This, the time of America’s deepest national shame, is upon us. I looked into Bush’s face as he uttered platitude after platitude, pious hypocrisy after hypocrisy, lie after lie, and he BELIEVED. I think he really believes the tripe he says.

Seriously people. It is MY belief that George W. Bush is insane.

He’s acting like this is a personal feud between himself and Saddam. He keeps talking about the welfare of the Iraqi people, and FREEDOM, FREEDOM, FREEDOM. He disgraces that noble word by touching it with his foul lips.

Now, after talking about how he is going to help the Iraqis, he is sending in the most powerful and yet mindless (because so much of it is machine) military organization in the History of this planet to kill untold thousands of them.

Is that sanity? The man is a homicidal maniac with his finger on the nuclear trigger. God help this poor planet now.

He also gave other reasons for killing Iraqis. For instance, he said, Saddam has nuclear weapons, and is conspiring to build more. The evidence? Those aluminum tubes that were talked about a while back. Never mind that the UN weapons inspectors have specifically said that those tubes were NOT for a nuclear program, that Saddam does NOT have nuclear weapons, and that Saddam does NOT have a nuclear program anymore. The Hell with the weapons inspectors. They’re not Americans, they’re foreigners. So what can they know? And anyway they’re not saying what George W. Bush really wants to hear. So he makes stuff up that sounds good to him. Lies come easily for him.

But the fact that everyone but Bush knows Saddam has no nukes is inconvenient. So Dubya decided to throw in a zinger. He has evidence (secret evidence again) that Iraq is behind Al Quaida! That’s right! He KNOWS that Saddam was behind 9/11!

This is quite interesting, since all the credible evidence indicates that Saddam was NOT behind 9/11. But Bush is SURE of his assertion, because several years ago one of Saddam’s sworn enemies told an American secret agent in Istanbul that he had heard, from a reliable source, of course, that just before the Gulf War one of Saddam’s cabinet ministers had tea with the brother of a man who is CONFIRMED by the United States as being SUSPECTED of being a member of Al-Quaida. That’s enough reason to level a country, right? Praise Jesus!

But what does Bush care? Let’s get the stupid American public on board!

And speaking of on board, how about the American economy? How about the fact that your Uncle, your brother-in-law, five of your neighbors and Jimmy at the local tavern have been out of work for months and can’t find a job, BECAUSE THERE AREN’T ANY. Does this fact at all worry you?

How can America be on board for some cockamamie foreign military aggression if it’s hungry and scared because it can’t pay the rent and has been living off it’s old age retirement savings for months?

Well, says the Pres, DON’T WORRY. He’s got the solution! Tax cuts to rich people! THAT will make the boo-boo all better! (This, by the way, as we all know, is an old ploy. Bush makes it sound like he is GIVING you money, so vote for him! Actually, he is still TAKING your money, but only a little less. Gee, thanks. I always appreciate when the mugger, instead of taking my entire wallet, empties it and throws it back along with the pictures of my kids. What a Saint!)

THEN, having proposed that the United States will have LESS money to spend, Bush then outlined how he will spend MORE money in Africa and elsewhere to buy friends and influence people. Sounds like belt-tightening time.

As was pointed out by a commentator after the speech, it sounds like Dubya’s domestic economic plan is to cut taxes, bribe people to like him, and launch a War that he hopes will stimulate the economy.

This contrasts sharply with his far reaching and imaginative foreign policy, which is to start War after War.

There were some chilling little asides in the speech also. The Pres dropped some heavy hints that after Iraq, it will be Iran’s turn. He still hasn’t forgotten how Reagan and Daddy Bush got themselves elected by arranging for Iran to hold American hostages for far longer than it would have otherwise, and then blamed the whole thing on Jimmy Carter.

That turned out to be a very successful strategy, so why not use Iran again? Heck, when you shoot Iranian babies the blood is just as red as the Iraqi’s, so why give up on a good thing? Restore the Shah! Invade Iran!

Gosh! This victorious war thing is addicting! Dubya is going to need a fix at least once a year.

Then he turned to North Korea.

A little less rhetoric there. Tread a mite more carefully George. After all, they already HAVE nukes. Damn Commies!

Oh, what the Hell! George was so impressed with himself that he was sure his mere thin-lipped moist-eyed visage would cause the North Koreans to flee in guilt-ridden panic and all beg to be accepted by Jesus. God be praised! Our side, the RIGHT side, will triumph!

George W. Bush is a very dangerous lunatic and, if somehow the American public remains lobotomized and re-elects him to a second term, he will start a nuclear exchange yet, and then tell everyone that is what Jesus wants! Forget global warming! How about some fallout and a nice nuclear winter?

I bet you think I’m just making this up.

But it’s OK. I live in Costa Rica so I’ll be safe. YOU probably live downwind from a primary nuclear target. You know, I hear you can grow REAL BIG tomatoes in a post-nuclear radiation-drenched environment. They’ll be poisonous, of course. That won’t matter though. You’ll already be dead.

What is wrong with the United States? Is this truly the mind of the American people? IMPEACH the little bugger for election fraud! I’m sure even the Cabal is having serious doubts about this puny hollow man. How much longer will they let him run loose with his Christian-soaked babble? He’s a squirrel, and he thinks he’s a Bradley combat vehicle.

Dear Lord, please forgive us. George W. Bush is NOT representative of the Human race. He is an aberration, a throw-back. He has power over our lives by a fluke and because the majority of people are moral cowards who won't denounce Evil when they see it. They wait until everyone around them denounces it and it is ALL RIGHT to call a frog a frog. THEN they become all moral and honest. Lord, don’t let men like George W. Bush destroy this planet. There are decent people here Lord, really.

If there are fifty righteous people on this world, wilt thou destroy it o’Lord? Will you not spare this Earth for the fifty righteous souls that dwell here?

That be far from Thee to do after this manner: to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous be as the wicked, that be far from Thee.

Shalt not the Judge of all the Earth do right?

And the LORD said, “If I find in Wa-Shing-ton fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”

And Had-rian-us answered Him and said “Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD; I which am but dust and ashes.”

Then spake Hadrianus: “But LORD, if there shall lack but five of the fifty righteous, wilt Thou destroy this place for lack of five?”

And the LORD said: “If I find there forty and five, I shall not destroy it.”

And yet Hadrianus, being stubborn and full of false pride, did speak up yet again; “But… what if only forty be found?”

Thus sayeth the Lord: “I will not let it be destroyed for forty’s sake”.

And Hadrianus, that vain Yeti, persisted, and said: “O’ let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak. What if only thirty good men be found in Wa-Shing-Ton?”

And the LORD said “I wilt not do it if I find but thirty there.”

“BUT” sayeth the LORD “If thy fellow men persist in allowing this Abomination to lead them, THEN all bets are off. For I am a jealous God, and I do not suffer fools lightly.”

THEN did Hadrianus go his own way, and his heart was deeply troubled.

So how about it people? Do you agree with launching this war? If you support the Prez, lay into me and tell me why I’m wrong.



Edited by - Hadrianus on 02/03/2003 1:10:12 PM
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Hadrianus
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Costa Rica
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Posted - 01/29/2003 :  6:14:35 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hullo. Yeti Lite here. Abu over there. What follows is a transcript of an interview conducted by the BBC which, after review by government censors, was banned “forever and a day” from broadcast to the public. It has been obtained for your viewing pleasure at no little cost to me. I had to trade the British Minister of Propaganda my first series Babe Ruth baseball card, in near mint condition, for the darn thing. So you better like it, or I'll tell some Federal Agency or other that you are a Terrorist and they’ll terrorize you.


BBC INTERVIEW

Good evening. I’m Nick Gowing, outwardly-appearing mature and distinguished stooge for the BBC with good diction, inwardly vacant time-server, here with another in our series of interviews with “People who know better”.

Tonight, our guest is Lord FitzRoy Hugginbottom, rich person, member of the House of Lords, and former Minister for Clean Air and Pizza in the British cabinet.

(Gowing) Good Evening Lord Hugginbottom.

(Hugginbottom) Good Evening Nick.

(Gowing) I’ll get straight to the point m’Lud. What the Hell is going on?

(Hugginbottom) If you’re referring to those allegations regarding Miss Understuff, I deny them completely and furthermore, even though the flat was in my name, I want to go on record as saying that I NEVER, EVER, touched her or….

(Gowing) Yes, that’s all very interesting m’Lud, but I was referring to the present brouhaha over Iraq.

(Hugginbottom) Oh. THAT. Well, not much to say really. Teddible business, Teddible. Business as usual really. I told Tony. “Tony” I told him, “this is going to be a teddible business, just teddible”.

(Gowing) That’s it, is it?

(Hugginbottom) Well, you know, it’s all fairly clear. A complete blockhead should see it.

(Gowing) Perhaps if you could enlighten me then?

(Hugginbottom) Oh, all right. Have it your way. You know, this will never get past the censors.

(Gowing nods wisely)

Right. It all starts with Saddam Hussein. Nasty chap. Murders people for a hobby you know. Completely uncouth.

Anyway, the entire World agrees Saddam is not nice. They agree Iraq would be a far better place without him. No one would regret seeing his backside.

(Gowing) I beg your pardon, m’Lud. Are you saying that I should make efforts to view Saddam’s backside? I’m not like that, you know.

(Hugginbottom) How the Devil should I know that, man? What I was referring to is that if he died no one would shed any tears.

(Gowing) Oh.

(Hugginbottom) In any case, where was I? The entire World agrees that Saddam should go. Then, there’s this matter of “Weapons of Mass Destruction.” Horrible things. Nasty. Biological weapons, nuclear bombs and all that.

(Gowing) Wasn’t it the Americans who invented nuclear bombs and who used them on civilians?

(Hugginbottom) Quite right. Nasty hypocrites, those Yanks. The entire World is further in agreement that Saddam should not have any of those weapons. Can’t trust him, you see. No one argues with that.

(Gowing) So the entire World agrees that Saddam is a bounder who should not have Weapons of Mass Destruction?

(Hugginbottom) Quite right. There’s no discord there. Everyone agrees.

(Gowing) So, if everyone agrees, what is this row we keep hearing about?

(Hugginbottom) Gad, man. Where HAVE you been? Living in some volcanic cave in the Central American rainforest? The row is that the United States says that Saddam HAS these weapons.

(Gowing) And the British say so too.

(Hugginbottom) Yes, unfortunately. Tony is such a sleazy little toady that he has attached himself, limpet-fashion, to Bush’s rear end and now cannot seem to get off.

(Gowing) One of the dangers of Brown-nosing, I suppose.

(Hugginbottom) Quite. It’s over this business of the weapons that everyone has taken different paths. The rest of the World does not think that Saddam has these weapons. This has led to the row.

(Gowing) How so?

(Hugginbottom) Well, when the rest of the World disagreed with America and Britain, the Americans and British claimed they had proof that Saddam has these weapons. But then they refused to show the proof to anyone else.

(Gowing) That seems a little suspicious, doesn’t it?

(Hugginbottom) Very. To further compound the problem, the Americans and the British kept promising that they would show this proof on certain dates, but then when the time came, they kept putting it off.

(Gowing) What was their excuse for putting it off?

(Hugginbottom) That’s what is so suspicious. They didn’t make any excuse. They would trot out this or that statement which only repeated the charges they were making against Saddam, and say “see? Here is the evidence!” They kept treating the rest of the World like they were a bunch of stupid dolts. The Americans and British kept acting like their word alone was sufficient to prove their case. Quite immature, really.

The rest of the World, quite naturally, kept saying “But this is not evidence! Merely charges made by you (America and Britain)! Where is the evidence you have?”

The American President, in particular, then became very subtle and evasive. “We have evidence” he said “and we will show it to you at the proper time.” Or, in other words, he was saying he did not trust the rest of the World to know this evidence just yet. Quite insulting.

(Gowing) But the rest of the World is used by now to being insulted by America.

(Hugginbottom) Yes, that’s true. But it doesn’t make it any less insulting to know that you have been insulted before.

So, having insulted the rest of the World, and seemingly not caring, the Americans then, not having made their case, proposed to “solve” this ‘problem’ they kept insisting existed. Their proposal was to invade Iraq, kill many people, and remove Saddam from power.

This really got everyone else suspicious. They all agreed there would be a problem IF Saddam had these weapons. They did NOT agree that Saddam had these weapons. So the World did not see that there was any problem.

IF there is a problem, like the Americans kept insisting there is, it is not at all clear that the “solution” proposed by the Americans is correct. Invading and killing many people would probably remove Saddam, it is true. But, as the rest of the World kept telling the Americans (who seem like hopeless backwoods provincials when it comes to World History) removing Saddam would not solve the claimed problem. Iraq is a very complex problem, the World says. It involves the Politics within Iraq, Kurds, Shiites and so forth, and the continuing nastiness in Palestine. Everything is linked. If Saddam goes, another very like him will probably take his place (even if the Americans try to impose a puppet regime, like in Afghanistan). If Saddam has weapons of Mass Destruction, the best way to make him USE them is to attack him. Or, he may hide them so that they are there for his successor. Moreover, such an attack on Iraq will have all sorts of unknown repercussions, not least that the Public Opinion of the Islamic World, while it may agree Saddam is not nice, supports Saddam against the United States. If the United States invades, not only will it kill a lot of Iraqis but the populations of neighboring States, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan, may well blame their own governments for standing by idly and doing nothing. There very conceivably could be revolutions and regime change all through the region as a result. We might even see someone far worse than Saddam arise. You know the old saying, “The Devil you know is preferable to the Devil you don’t”. Why take such a risk?

But the Americans have poo-poohed the entire idea that the problem is complex. It’s all very simple, they say, black and white. Saddam is the bad guy, they are the good guys. Just like in their Western movies, they will ride in, clean up the town, and get the girl. Very simplistic. I don’t think that for a moment they believe it. Uh, oh, well, maybe Bush believes it. He is very stupid you know.

(Gowing) But the Americans have done this sort of thing before, haven’t they?

(Hugginbottom) Yes, in 1991 the senior George Bush was terrified of the President of Panama, Manuel Noriega. You see, when the senior Bush had been head of the American CIA, he and Noriega had been buddies. The American CIA, you must understand, although it is supposed to be a branch of the United States Government, is not. The CIA is semi-independent, and goes around doing all sorts of nastiness in the World without the permission of the American Government. So, to obtain funding for these secret operations, the CIA needs a massive income independent of the American Government. They get this income from an agreement they have with organized crime in the United States. Most of the money generated by this agreement comes from the production, smuggling, and sale of illegal drugs.

(Gowing) Now wait a minute. You are saying that while the United States Government is going about making all this noise that it is fighting drugs, a nominal branch of that Government is going around promoting those drugs? All in the name of profit?

(Huggingbottom) Yes. That was why they fought that idiotic war in Vietnam. To protect the poppy fields, the source of supply at that time you see. But now they get the drugs from Turkey.

(Gowing) I see. And just where is your proof for this assertion?

(Hugginbottom) Oh, I have convincing proof, and I will let you see it at the proper time.

(Gowing) Oh. All right then.

(Hugginbottom) Now, as part of this operation, the CIA needs to “launder” it’s money. It wouldn’t do to have it shown that the CIA pays for itself with dirty money. Part of this laundering operation was the banking system in the Republic of Panama. The President of Panama, Manuel Noriega, allowed this in exchange for a cut of the action. So, for that reason, Noriega knew where many of the bodies were buried. As part of this process, he had constant dealings with Bush senior, since Bush was head of the CIA. Therefore Noriega knew a lot of compromising things, both about the CIA and about Bush.

Well, time went on, and Bush became the American President. Noriega, for his part, was stupid. He was never really a Politician. Just a sort of glorified thug, that’s all. He thought that he saw an opportunity to put the screws on Bush and to blackmail him. And this worked, for a while. Bush paid Noriega off to keep quiet. He did this in the form of “loans” to Panama. But Noriega got greedy. He kept asking for more and more. Bush began to balk at this, because he saw that some people in the United States were beginning to ask questions and raise eyebrows over all this favor Bush was showing to Noriega.

So Bush manufactured a situation where he claimed Panama had declared war on the United States.

(Gowing) But that’s preposterous. No one would believe that.

(Hugginbottom) You would think so, wouldn’t you? It was a rather clumsy excuse, I must say. And, if it had to stand on it’s own, it probably would have collapsed of it’s own dead weight.

Bush’s response to Panama ‘Declaring War’ was to invade Panama and remove Noriega. He did it very brutally too. Thousands of innocent Panamanians were killed.

(Gowing) What was the World reaction to this transparent aggression?

(Hugginbottom) Bush senior was far smarter than his son. Evidently he had the entire thing worked out beforehand. Not like now. Bush senior had also, while he was planning to shut Noriega up, been tempting Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait. He sent Saddam weapons and told Saddam, indirectly of course so that Bush could deny it later, that the United States would do nothing if Saddam invaded Kuwait. It was sort of like what the Americans call a “sting” operation, where the incentive and means to commit a crime are provided by the police, who then are waiting to nab the individual who takes their bait. Quite immoral, really.

Saddam, not being a very bright fellow, took the bait and invaded. Then we got the Gulf War. This all happened at the same time Bush invaded Panama. So of course, the one overshadowed the other, and the nastiness in Panama was never really questioned, and was quickly forgotten, since there is no oil in Panama and there is tacit agreement in most of the World that the Western Hemisphere belongs to the United States anyway.

(Gowing) Wait a moment! Are you saying the first Gulf War was made up to cover-up ANOTHER cover-up in Panama, to hide the fact that Bush senior is a Drug Dealer? But, but… that’s so, so… Byzantine!

(Hugginbottom) It WAS rather brilliant, wasn’t it? But, no, that wasn’t the only motivation for the first Gulf War. The Americans had been looking for an excuse for a long time to establish a considerable military presence next to the oil fields. The first Gulf War gave them that excuse. They have never left Kuwait.

(Gowing) Do you realize what you are saying m’Lud? You are saying that the American Government has been lying to us! You are saying that their main motivation in the World is not a sense of justice or morality, but rather that they are motivated by money and profit! That would be unconscionable!

(Hugginbottom - uncomfortable silence)

(Gowing) So how does all this tie in with what is happening now?

(Hugginbottom) You see, of course, that all this sets a precedent for Bush junior. His Father got away with it, so why can’t he? If Bush senior could simply invade Panama and arrest it’s President, and no one said anything, Bush junior, not being an especially bright fellow, thinks he can invade Iraq and do the same thing. By the by, of course, that will put America in charge of the Iraqi oil fields. Once the United States manages to seize Iraq, they will never leave.

(Gowing) (sputtering) But, I, you… Tony Blair would never stand for such a thing!

(Hugginbottom) You think not? He gets a slice (a small slice) of the action.

Now, back to the current row. So the rest of the World does NOT agree Saddam has these weapons, and, even if he did, the rest of the World does NOT agree that the proper solution will be to invade Iraq.

The American excuse, that they say they know what no one else does, and that they’ll prove their case later, is incredibly thin.

I might as well just say this now about George W. Bush, the American President. He wants the support of the rest of the World. But that is not his doing. Originally, because he is an ignorant cowboy, he did not understand why he needed the support of the rest of the World. He knows he has enough guns and bombs to take over almost any country he wants, and he doesn’t understand that killing other people is wrong. So, at the beginning, after the rest of the World told him they did not believe what he was saying, he told them that he didn’t need them, he didn’t care what they thought, and he would do whatever he pleased.

This, of course, is not the attitude of a mature adult. It is the attitude of an adolescent schoolboy. Quite aside from being on the low side of the IQ scale, George W, Bush is emotionally damaged. The reason for this is clear. He was raised, if you can call it that, by George W. Bush senior, who is a cold, calculating, quiet but vicious man. Bush junior never had a chance. His father has gotten him out of trouble for his entire life, yet has told him at every turn how inadequate he is. As a result, Bush junior never grew up. His emotional maturity is frozen somewhere around the age of 13. This is reflected in his attitude toward the United Nations. He wants them to do as they are told, or he has no use for them. If they oppose him, he will pettishly do what he can to destroy them. He sees no shades of gray. He is unable to compromise. He is a boy in a man’s body. Very sad, but in this situation, very dangerous, because he acts without thinking. He believes that everyone who does not support him is against him. He is certainly not fit to be the head of a powerful country. He should be in therapy instead.

Very typical of American “democracy”. They keep “electing” mediocrities and morons.

As it turned out, Bush’s first, initial disregard for world opinion was changed. Not because he understood how important it is to get along with your neighbors, but because those around him, his Father, Colin Powell, and, strange as it seems, Tony Blair, do understand these things. At least they understand them better than George W. Bush. So they pressured him to submit to the judgment of the United Nations. And he did submit. But he didn’t like doing that. He submitted because of what the others said, and he resented it.

But now, it seems, like a petulant little boy, he has thrown off restraint. He has rejected the advice of the adults around him, and is going to do what he wants, simply for the pleasure of being “in charge”. Very dangerous. Because he hasn’t a clue about what he is really doing. He thinks he is a hero in a western movie. In that role, he thinks, it’s OK to shoot the bad guys. Very ignorant. Very sad.

(Gowing) But this is awful. Won’t anyone stop him?

(Hugginbottom) Who is going to stop him? No one else has either the physical strength (military) or the moral resolve. Bush is quite right that the UN is a bunch of wimps. One is reminded of how Hitler judged that all the Western democracies were weak and corrupt before he began his aggressions. Remember Munich? The members of the UN are all thinking of their own behinds, not of what is right or moral. This will be a new low point in the annals of Western civilization, because that civilization is allowing itself to be cast in the image of a spoiled, stupid, immature, violent man. To think that all the centuries of philosophy, art, culture and science should come to this. (shakes head sadly)

So now we have this row. Since the United States (and Mr. Blair) have abysmally failed so far to come up with any of this “evidence” they claim they have against Saddam, the UN has sent in a professional team of inspectors to methodically check and see what is going on in Iraq. Having inspectors on the spot is certainly more convincing than relying on the vague suppositions that are all the “Intelligence agencies” can usually produce in the way of information.

(Gowing) One would think so, wouldn’t one?

(Hugginbottom) Yes, one would. But that is the problem. America, and now Britain, refuse to let the inspectors do their job. It is not the Iraqis who are blocking the inspections. It is the Americans.

(Gowing) And why is that, do you think?

(Hugginbottom) Well, it’s beginning to look like it is the Americans, and not the Iraqis, who have something to hide. The Americans do not want the inspectors to do their jobs, because they suspect that the inspectors will find nothing. That would be proof, so to speak, that America has no proof. This in turn would show that America has been lying, just like the Iraqis have claimed.

(Gowing) So why would that be important? You said that George W. Bush couldn’t care less about world opinion.

(Hugginbottom) Right. It’s not world opinion he cares about. It’s what the world might DO. If the world becomes quite positive that America is lying, they will see that there is some OTHER reason why America wants to attack Iraq.

(Gowing) Are you saying that George W. Bush does not really believe Saddam has weapons of mass destruction?

(Hugginbottom) Oh, I believe that Bush believes. He is such a stooge. He is a front. And of course, the perfect front believes the lies he tells. But the men behind him, they know better.

(Gowing) So what is the real reason America wants to invade Iraq?

(Hugginbottom) Well, you seem like an intelligent person (he crosses his fingers). If there is no legitimate reason to attack Iraq in self-defense, what other reason has been the basis, over the centuries, for one country attacking another?

(Gowing) Territory? That’s why the United States attacked Mexico in 1846, right?

(Hugginbottom) Yes, that’s one reason. But not in this case. Iraq is so far from the US that it can never form an integral part of America. Think of another reason.

(Gowing) Sometimes one country attacks another for profit, for money.

(Hugginbottom) Exactly. Now think, what does Iraq, a poor country, have that might be worth enough money to justify another country attacking it?

(Gowing) Falafel?

(Hugginbottom) No.

(Gowing) Camels?

(Hugginbottom) No. I know it hurts, but try to think Nick.

(Gowing) Uh, well, they do have a rather large amount of oil.

(Hugginbottom) Bingo.

(Gowing) America wants to attack Iraq for it’s oil? But that can’t be! Just a month or so ago Colin Powell said America does not want to attack Iraq for it’s oil!

(Hugginbottom) And Colin Powell would never lie, right?

(Gowing) I don’t think so. He’s so neat, and going gray, and he looks so Grandfatherly, you know? How could he lie? I saw a bit in the news on him a while back where he laughed! And he put his arm around a child! He’s a Statesman. They never lie. He would never do anything that might result in the deaths of innocent people!

(Hugginbottom) Just before the Gulf War Saddam had himself photographed with his arm around a British child.

(Gowing) That made me so mad! Saddam is a monster!

(Hugginbottom) And of course, you know, Colin Powell has been in the Army most of his life. He’s a General.

(Gowing) No!

(Hugginbottom) Yes. Powell has spent most of his life learning how to, and planning how to, kill people.

(Gowing) Oh dear, that’s so disillusioning!

(Hugginbottom) So to get back to World opinion, if the rest of the World sees clearly, without chance of real error, that the United States has been lying, they will certainly, reluctantly, conclude that what the United States really wants is to take control of the world’s oil reserves.

Bush, even though he is a moron, has advisors who understand clearly that if the World becomes convinced that the US is trying to take over the oil, the World might unite, finally, against American agresssion.

(Gowing) But you said that no one can stop Bush.

(Hugginbottom) Right, no ONE can. But a united world, with the forces available to, for instance, Russia, China, Germany and France, might very well make such a war very, very costly, to the extent that America might even be defeated.

The American Generals understand this. That is why they have used Colin Powell all this time to act like the “dove” in the American administration, to act like he is the voice of reason, to keep the rest of the World confused and guessing.

But now the crunch time is near, and Powell is finally showing his true colors.

Soon, it will be too late. The United States and it’s satellite nations have already been moving troops for quite a while, and the rest of the world has done nothing. In a week, in a month, they will invade and present the world with a Fait Accompli.

So it is still very necessary to keep the rest of the World off it’s guard and out of balance. The United States must undermine the inspectors so that they cannot reach any firm conclusions, but the United States must APPEAR to NOT be undermining the inspectors. This will keep everyone still guessing until time runs out. Once the US controls the oil, it will control the World! Und zen, zey vill impose der trew religion, yah! Und efferyvun vill vorship der Fuehrer, yah! Heil Bush!

(Gowing, suspiciously) Are you feeling all right, m’Lud?

(Hugginbottom, recovering his composure) Yes, yes. I’m sorry I got carried away. After all, I AM part of the BRITISH ruling class, you know. We respond so well to authority.

(Gowing) Quite. But there is one thing I still do not understand.

(Hugginbottom) Really?

(Gowing) Yes. If you know all this, doesn’t it stand to reason that the governments of the rest of the World suspect it as well and won’t be bought off with this charade of inspections?

(Hugginbottom, surprised) You thought of that yourself? Good show! Certainly Bush has such contempt for anyone who is not Texan that he does not think the rest of the World has any mental ability whatsoever. Actually, it is Bush who hasn’t a clue. But the adults in the American government have certainly been contacted by now in private by many other governments who suspect what is going on and who want in.

Tony Blair is such an imbecile that he actually came out in Parliament and admitted that is why Britain is so far out in front supporting the Americans. Blair wants first choice of the leftovers after Bush is done.

You can be sure the Russians, and probably the Chinese, not wanting a full scale war with the US right now, are trying to cut a deal in the shadows. They will agree not to take any concrete moves, in return for a share of the oil. It’s not like the world is going to see what is really going on when they watch TV. (Gowing stiffens). You and I know that History is made in paneled rooms, around elaborate tables, with fat men sitting in overstuffed leather chairs, wreathed in cigar smoke, a drink in one hand. When push comes to shove don’t be at all surprised if the Russians or the Chinese back down.

(Gowing) And the French and Germans?

(Hugginbottom) Small fry. Of no account. They have no military clout. So they may well be left out and they’ll make trouble on the security council.

(Gowing) So if the UN objects or refuses to ratify an invasion, that won’t stop Bush?

(Hugginbottom) Not unless the Russians or the Chinese are involved and move military force to the defense of Iraq. I really can’t see that happening. They may keep up stiff faces until the end, but they will almost certainly be bought off in the background.

(Gowing) So what is happening right now is not a showdown over giving the inspectors more time until the United States can ram another resolution through the Security Council?

(Hugginbottom) Not really. Up to now all this bluster and maneuver has been to show the Russians and Chinese that the Americans mean business. Now comes the serious business of dividing up the World’s remaining oil. You won’t see this, as I said, on the BBC.

(Gowing) So Britain is not really part of this?

(Hugginbottom) Blair has probably done the right thing as far as realpolitik is concerned. He has dealt England in for a share of the spoils. There was never really a question of them not going in.

The cost, of course, is that all involved have damned their souls to Hell. They are all liars, and thieves, and, in the end, murderers, the better to have their expensive cars and houses and dinners.

(Gowing) So there really is no row going on?

(Hugginbottom) Oh yes there is. It’s just not as presented to the public, that’s all. All the powers have decided the time has come to divide up the World’s remaining oil reserves. Not one of them, not China, not Russia, not America, wants to see that decision left up to the Arabs. The Arabs, after all, were behind the formation of OPEC, which is only a legitimized monopoly to milk the maximum profit out of the oil reserves. If anyone is going to do any milking and blackmail the rest of the World, the Americans are determined that it will be them, not the Saudis or the Iraqis.

We are now seeing the victor of the cold war finally moving to gather in the spoils. The United States will make some effort to keep a good face on what it is doing, although to judge by Bush and his minions, that effort will be minimal. But in the end, the Americans will take what they want, even if they have to kill thousands of people to get it. This is what Bush senior meant when he talked about “the new World Order”. This whole operation has been in the planning stage for several decades.

(Gowing) So soon, it will be the Americans, and not the Arabs or OPEC, who control the world’s oil. Well, it could be worse.

(Hugginbottom) Just wait. This is only the first stage of the New World Order. The Americans have plans for everyone, and unless you like cheeseburgers, you may not like those plans.

(Gowing) Ah! Well. On that note we must end this interview. I want to thank you, Lord Fitzroy Hugginbottom, for being here with us today.

(Hugginbottom) My pleasure, Nick.


END OF TRANSCRIPT



Edited by - Hadrianus on 02/03/2003 1:37:11 PM
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backchat
Galactic Member

527 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2003 :  7:12:42 PM  Show Profile Send backchat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Hadrianus, sorry I havn't got back to this post. You and I have swapped many a comment on this topic so you know where I stand. However many marches we go on, letters we send to our MPs, or petitions we sign, Bush is going to war and thats it.
He is determined. The only thing that might cause havoc, is if we the ordinary joe blogs in the street, a million or two might do it, hire planes and stand between the troops and the Iraqis. You and I know its not going to happen, so what the hell else can we do. Will all US and GB citizens refuse to pay their taxes for the next year? Very few brave enough because unless everyone is willing to do it, the few will be persecuted.
The heads of government will get away with it, because they can. And I'll bet you this too, most of the people who voted to put them into office will vote for them again. Because they traditionally vote for a certain party and will never change. Happens in all our countries.
Mad as we are Had, theres sod all we can do about it. They don't care what we think.

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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2003 :  7:54:25 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, the opinion of the small people be damned. This is how the big boys play hard ball. The oil is running out. America won the cold war. So America naturally feels it should have the benefit of what oil is left. The men who run America have decided that right now is the opportune time to make their move. They are going to seize the Iraqi, then the Saudi and Iranian, and then the Venezuelan and Nigerian oil fields come hell or high water. No measly considerations of justice, or fairness, or morality are going to stop them. The only thing that will stop them are armies equal to theirs, and that doesn't look like happening. I only wish they would concoct cover stories that are not so stupid and illogical and insulting to our intelligence. Why not just come out and say "We (America) want to control the world's oil, and you can't stop us"?

Except for the people who actually OWN the oil, I think most everyone would accept such a statement. We wouldn't like it, but there wouldn't be all this moral ANGST thats going on now. We'd all just say "Oh, well, OK. America is an immoral Empire, just like all the other Empires in History. At least now we know where we stand."

But no, those pious hypocrites. They want to act like they're the good guys, and so they will continue lying to our faces.
We might as well get used to it.

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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2003 :  8:00:01 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
POODLE POOP

Happy days everyone! What fun! American FREEDOM and LIBERTY are about to be imposed around the World! Whether anyone likes it or not.

The latest wrinkle in Our Beloved President’s WAR ON TERROR is a letter from a number of European Governments supporting an unprovoked American attack on Iraq and it’s defenseless people.

The other day I mentioned that Russia and China undoubtedly see right through this shameless and immoral scheme by the Western Powers to steal Iraq’s oil. But I was too pessimistic. Most of the World is far smarter than I gave it credit for. Now it seems like everyone sees right through Bush. (And why not? The man is as transparent as the water in your toilet.)

Spain, Portugal, Italy, Poland, The Czech Republic, Austria and Denmark have added their names to the Roll of Shame in supporting this Evil war. Now they have GOTTEN ON BOARD. Now they won’t have their oil cut off.

How coincidental that this letter surfaces at the same time Bush made his “this war is being forced on us” speech. What timing! What finesse! HERE is the beginning of that coalition Bush has been babbling about for months. Right! I’m sure that Portugal will make a big difference in any war.

Actually, don’t believe everything you hear.

What is going on is that Tony the Poodle personally drafted that letter and, for the last month or so, has been twisting arms in Europe to get signatures. Never mind that Blair denies he did that, or that Spain says IT was the instigator of this nonsense. It was Tony. (What has he done, promised to give back Gibraltar to Spain?)

You see, Tony is an absolutely shameless opportunist. Quite a while back, he knew that the US was getting ready for this oil snatch, and of course he wanted to be a part of it. But then, those gears inside his oily little pointy head began whirring, and he thought “why can’t I make some profit off this thing on the side? Why can’t I arrange this thing to put Britain (me) on top in Europe, to give me the whip hand, to place me at the forefront of this stupid EU thing?”

After all, not being the sharpest tool in the shed, a while back Tony actually admitted in a speech that he wanted to be America’s poodle so that Britain (him) could be “at the center of Europe”. Very subtle Tony. Keep ‘em guessing, right?

So how to do this? How to milk Bush’s fundamentalist madness so that England makes out?

Well, certainly, as the price for English support and participation in this immoral and shameful war, Blair has demanded, and gotten, a guarantee from Bush that once America owns the Middle East, it will provide England with a fair share of the oil.

But now Blair, on his own, is going around Europe, enlightening their governments that under “The New World Order” they will have trouble getting oil unless they play ball, and then saying that playing ball means they kiss Britain’s ass. This, he assures them, will guarantee their oil supplies which, soon, he, Blair, as Bush’s Poodle, will be in a position to cut off if he sees fit.

And who says that power corrupts?

As part of this kissing procedure Tony drew up a little pledge of support for the other governments to sign. Then, when he deemed the time was ripe, he presented the letter as a gift to Mad George, hoping to win the Massa’s favor.

What’s surprising about the letter is not that it has shown up, but that so few governments signed it. It seems that countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greece, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Belarus, the Ukraine, and so forth have stood up, at least so far, against this oil blackmail of Tony’s and have not signed. Bravo for them. For the others, shame and disgrace in History forever.

France and Germany did not sign either. Why? Well, it could be they are brave and want to stick to their guns, opposing the war. Or, it could be it was because they were not asked to sign.

That seems odd, that they were not even given a chance to change their minds.

Not so odd, really. Tony is delighted that Germany, France and America are at odds. Since America is about to become the World’s oil Dictator, and Tony is Bush’s Poodle, that means, if France and Germany are out of favor with Washington, that Tony is top dog in the European pond. Tony WANTS Germany and France to oppose America. He is not about to give them a chance to make amends and patch things up. He is not about to give them a chance to sign that letter.

How sneaky. How underhanded. How devious. Tony, I didn’t think you had it in you. Good dog.

Once Tony is running Europe, I hear he has plans to seize the Mona Lisa and put it in his bathroom. He also has his eyes on one of Mad Ludwig of Bavaria’s castles.

That is, if the Arabs don’t get at him first.

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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2003 :  8:05:08 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(Note to Forum: the former Soviet KGB is still busy. They obtained this intercepted communication, then realized Bill Gates is their new boss, so they released it just for a laugh anyway. Those fun-loving Russians!)

VERY TOPSKY SEKRETSKY: For Your Eyesovitch Only

Dear Mister Presidentsky: We are opening the mail of that Bourgeois Pig Blair when he is stupid enoughsky to send it through Russia to that Bourgeois Pig Gates on his secret Pleasure Island in Indian Oceansky.. Following is translation. We are doing good, yes? When can I have my children back?


PROGRESS REPORT - NEW WORLD ORDER (NWO)

To: William Gates, World Chairman

C/O: MICROSOFT Corporation, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal, Mexico City, Tegucigalpa, San Jose, Panama City, Bogota, Lima, Cuzco, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Brasilia, Capetown, Kinshasa, Ougoudougu, Casablanca, Tunis, Cairo, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Riyadh, Damascus, Istanbul, Athens, Vienna, Rome, Geneva, Paris, Madrid, Amsterdam, Brussels, Danzig, Frankfurt, Berlin, Warsaw, Prague, Copenhagen, Oslo, London, Dublin, Kiev, Helsinki, Stockholm, St. Petersburg, Kiev, Moscow, New Delhi, Kathmandu, Bangkok, Singapore, Sydney, Ho Chi Minh City, Hong Kong, Auckland, Manila, Tokyo, Honolulu, Luna base and Mars.

Re: Plan to take over the Earth

Dear Bill:

I know you are busy, designing new ways to spy on people through their PC’s and all, so this is just a really brief digest of the report submitted by Colin and Bush senior to the full Cabal last week.

Bush junior, as you know, is working out well. Not only is he far more stupid than even his Father suspected, but his stupidity allows us to manipulate him shamelessly. He is following our timetable to take over the World’s oil, because we promised to ‘make him famous’. Sure we will. He is being so obscenely blatant about the process that everyone is beginning to really hate him. About time, too. Once we use him up, it will be easy to divert attention from ourselves by throwing him to the wolves.

The division and conquest of the Muslim World is proving far easier than we dared hope. They are such idiots that their governments are vying with each other to win our favor and to sell each other out. Soon we will own them all and be able to steal all that oil they happen to live on top of. Colin has floated a plan that after we dispose of Iraq, we ‘discover’ that the Koran actually is an anti-Christian diatribe and that those towel-heads are planning to “conquer the World” using Al-Quaida as a front. He says we could use that to exterminate every camel-jockey on Earth. Well, you know the smell of blood might make Colin hard, but my Astrologer tells me that the quincunx of Mercury will not allign with the rising diametric of Thoth until the fat lady sings, and so genocide won’t play well with all the dummies. My wife agrees. So I must say that Colin has his head up a sheep’s rectum.

And that miserable little American weasel Bush junior has a favor to ask. Could you send some of your plumbers to “fix” the computer systems of the government of Venezuela, and perhaps any other of those banana republics that have appreciable quantities of oil? If their information systems are messed up, it will make it so much easier for him to invade them and protect our oil.

While we’re on the subject, Kudos on that new Explorer system you put in Windows 2003 1/12. Now we can tap into almost every computer on the planet.

How are you coming in your negotiations with those stubborn Chinese? Once they let Microsoft into China without restrictions, the place is as good as ours, and we’ll finally have this whole planet wrapped up.

I can hardly wait.

Just think Bill. We won’t measure our wealth in billions of dollars any more, but in how many countries we personally own. You know, I’ve had my eye on New Zealand for some years. Could you put in a good word with the Cabal for me? I’ll support you when you grab Germany.

Well, I hope all is well with your: Diamond Mines, Oil Wells, Banks, Gold Mines, various Corporations, World-wide communications Empire, Artificial Intelligence Project, Clone Project, Space Programs and Interstellar Research.

By the by, Kofi wants to know did you meet with the Zeta Reticulans last week as we planned, or did you break the date again? How is *#Z’Kyr’eeeegh’Neek Neek anyway? And when are they going to cough up some new weaponry we can use to solve the population problem?

I gotta go now. My country calls, duty and honor, and all that rot. Stop by soon. Charlie and his ‘Mum want to play “horsie” again.

Ta.

Your Pal,

Tony “the Tiger”


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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2003 :  3:37:51 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Space Shuttle Columbia burned up on entering the Earth's atmosphere today, killing all 7 astronauts aboard, including a Colonel in the Israeli Air Force.

This was, any way you look at it, a terrible tragedy. It does not matter what your political persuasion is. That this event ocurred at all is a source of sorrow for everyone.

But, this occurrence cannot be left at that.

In the political arena (what? Have I no heart?) the death of Israel's first astronaut is bound to raise some suspicions. Not least because of the timing. I certainly hope that President Bush, as small as I think him, is not crass enough to try and use this event to advance his own agenda.

I certainly hope we hear nothing in the coming days implying that somehow Saddam Hussein was behind this accident. But at this point I would put nothing past Bush. We will just have to wait and see...

The other item, which I mention only because it might very well get lost in the hubbub, are the statements made by the NASA spokesman (at least I think he was a NASA spokesman - he may have been from the Air Force) as he was announcing the disaster. These were carried on the BBC without comment.

This person, whoever he was, said that before the breakup process started, what appeared to be a small aircraft was seen tailing the shuttle - which was at that time traveling at 20,000 kph. But then he immediately corrected himself, saying that no aircraft could travel at that speed...

What is to be made of this? After all, this is a UFO forum. I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions.

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backchat
Galactic Member

527 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2003 :  7:50:57 PM  Show Profile Send backchat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all may I offer my condolences to the families of those who died today on the Challenger shuttle. It was a terrible accident, thats what it was for sure, and I too hope their memory is not sullied by any intimation that this may not be an accident.

Their families have suffered a tragic loss but we too have also suffered a loss. Our fellow men have lost their lives in furthering mans quest for knowledge, and as the apt saying goes, only the brave die young. I say brave because although they were there of their own free will, how many of us would dare to go into space, for there are millions fearful of flying in a plane.

So not only do we lose these precious people, we lose the impetous to explore our solar system. I doubt whether there will ever be a mars project now so, sad as this acident is, the ramifications for the future of mankind cannot be over estimated.

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backchat
Galactic Member

527 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2003 :  8:18:16 PM  Show Profile Send backchat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Had, I have no argument with your diatribe on Blair. Seems pretty on the nail to me. On the subject of the signed letter I do have one or two coments. First of all, the German prime minister was elected at the last minute, only winning the election on his stance against the war. He can hardly now sign a document saying he agrees to it. As I have said before, France has always been scared stiff of Germany. Germany says jump and the French say how high.
Now the reasons for the rest either signing or not signing are quite varied. Take the former Eastern block countries out of the equation because they are committed to getting their oil from Russia, of course Russia has her own. The Norwegians also have oil of their own, North Sea oil. And although it won't last forever, they have sufficient for their needs for some time in the future. Sweden is a traditionally neutral country and as far as the Netherlands go, their economy is geared to the German one. So, they will only sign what the Germans sign. In reality, the French and Germans do not wish to waste their precious reserves on Her Bushes war. The Italians and the Spanish, maybe Portugal too, have recently arrested suspected terrorists, whith their cache of explosives etc. So that is maybe why they have signed the letter.

We don't need to talk about Blair, except there will be a big debate on the BBC in the next few days, on 'What the Nation Thinks'. But as you and I know, Blair will see this as an acceptance whatever the result.

We are told that 'Intelligence' proof will be made available next week. Why wasn't it brought out sooner? We may be into another Vietnam if Saddam stays to fight. Hand to hand combat on the streets of Baghdad, will not be the easy thing our leaders believe.

I saw an interview with Iraqis yesterday on the news, they were clamly going about their business, bringing the cotton crop in. All believing that Bush wants their oil, and all believing there will not be a war.

I want to know why the US is convinced of its evidence and why the Iraqi people are equally convinced there is none. Maybe there is a point between the two somewhere.

As for your next post I have no real comment to make.

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Gerbil
Galactic Member

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2003 :  10:08:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Gerbil's Homepage Send Gerbil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
JEEEEEZZ had i go away for a week and you write me a book to read! well thanks i just need a bottle of water and some food and i'll start the reading

If you belive then what else do you need?
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Hadrianus
Galactic Member

Costa Rica
1623 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2003 :  2:48:05 PM  Show Profile Send Hadrianus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
America is going to invade Iraq. Never mind why. That this will happen should surprise exactly no one, since Bush has been saying he would do this since the Afghanistan war (the most recent one).

When America invades Iraq it will kill a lot of people. This is a given. Never mind all this propaganda about "the welfare of the Iraqi people" being "foremost" or "smart bombs" being very accurate and reducing "collateral damage" to a minimum. That's all nonsense, designed to make us bleeding hearts feel better while babies, children, old people, people who cannot in any way defend themselves, are slaughtered in ways that are too gruesome to imagine.

It also is a given that murdering such people is immoral, wrong and Evil. It is sort of the basic definition for those concepts.

The motive of the United States for doing this is also not out front. We are told one thing about one man, the Iraqi leader, without any proof, as if that justifies murdering the Iraqi people. This makes no sense and is clearly not the truth.

For this reason the UN may very well not sanction the upcoming war.

If that happens, there is even a chance that Blair and England will not go along with this insanity.

But, of course, none of that will stop George Walker Bush, who is a fraud and a charlatan, immensely frightened that people will see through him, and so who is determined to go ahead with this madness, because he stupidly believes it will in some way make people like him. A true moron.

So the entire affair looks to be a done deal even now, before it begins.

Yet, in 50 years the History books (if there is a human race left to read history in 50 years) will glibly parrot the official line which even today is being laughed at, and assure their readers that the whole thing was necessary.

And no one will care.

Today I saw on the tube a statement read by a spokesman for NASA "from the families of the astronauts" who were killed the other day when the Columbia shuttle disintegrated re-entering the atmosphere.

I know my last post on this subject might have seemed insensitive and callous to some of you. If so, I apologise. I did not mean any disrespect to the dead, nor to their bereaved families who, I am sure, are going through unspeakable grief.

But there is a contrast I wish to draw with all due respect to the deceased.

The NASA spokesman spoke of the suffering of the families, how they will miss their loved ones, and how the dead astronauts were exemplary people who will be missed.

I argue with none of that.

But then it occured to me, such a gesture is indeed fitting when someone dies tragically. They should not only be remembered, but if they died for the sake of a government program or for the welfare of the general community, a public tribute is definitely in order.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I still vividly remember the Vietnam war. In that conflict, thousands of young Americans, and millions of Vietnamese, who were no less dedicated, no less beloved, no less worthy of remembrance, were also killed to serve the ends of their governments.

Did we see such hand wringing, such protestations of grief, such public tributes as we now see for the astronauts? No.

What the Americans got was their names written on a wall. What the Vietnamese got, if they were lucky, was a plot of earth, 6'x 2' to call their own. And that was it.

This sort of behavior is not, after all, surprising. Those killed in wars have ever been forgotten by their governments, except for a monument or two.

It seemed to me at least ironic that the United States Government is bending so far to honor those unfortunate astronauts on the eve of an invasion in which that same government will undoubtedly kill thousands, tens of thousands of people, many, many of whom will be just as deserving of remembrance. Yet undoubtedly those people will not only be ignored, but villified, by the American Media.

If one human being is worthy of remembrance, why not all human beings?

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps the American State Department is planning on running a public TV spot on each and every innocent family that is killed in this upcoming planned crime, listing their achievements, showing their smiling photos, names, ages, and asking people to remember them. Maybe.

But I sort of doubt it. Don't you?

It just seems to me to be so, so.... well, hypocritical, you know?

Ah, well, yet another rant by yours truly. It still might not happen, right? That Iraqi 2 year old playing in her garden today might not be hamburger in 3 months after all.

I would like that.

Colin (the Dove) Powell is due, once and for all dammit!, to produce the ABSOLUTE, UNQUESTIONABLE, TRUE, UNDENIABLE, CLEAR AND CONVINCING PROOF on Wednesday before the UN which will justify the upcoming attack on Iraq. I mean, I hope I didn't miss something here. What's scheduled is not another delay in proof production, right? This is gonna be it, right? No more excuses, no more dilly-dallying. If Colin's got it (and Bush says he does) then he's gonna show it. If he don't show it, he don't got it. This is it.

So what's he gonna come up with?

Well, for me, I gotta tell you, it better be more than what Bush and his blood-crazed puppets have produced already.

OK, Saddam had weapons years ago and we don't know what happened to them. Does that justify invading a whole country? No.

OK, the Iraqis allow inspections anywhere the inspectors want to go, but they haven't brought out those missing weapons and piled them at the inspectors feet because, they say, those weapons don't exist anymore.

Is that enough reason to invade an entire country? No.

OK, George Bush claims that Saddam gives refuge and weapons to terrorists, especially Al Quaida.

Is that enough reason to invade an entire country? Without some supporting evidence, which has yet to be produced, no. Who cares what George W. Bush says? He is a liar and not to be believed.

For instance, I will say right now that George W. Bush was behind 9/11 and should be impeached. Do you believe me without proof?

Bush's claims about Iraq are in the same category.

There are only a few things that Powell might demonstrate that would make me shut up and say "well, maybe an attack is justified".

One would be a demonstration not only that Iraq has chemical or biological weapons (we know they don't have nuclear weapons), but that they have delivery systems which can reach the United States, or at least Europe, AND that there is some sort of credible information that Saddam is planning to launch an attack in the not-too-distant future.

Another proof that would cause me to ease my doubts would be to show that not only is Al-Quaida being in some way funded and supported by Iraq (as it was by Afghanistan) but ALSO some sort of convincing proof that Al-Quaida was behind 9/11.

You know, in all this hubbub about Iraq, the question of who was behind 9/11 has become largely ignored. Everyone now seems to accept the version which George Bush told us, and never presented any convincing proof for. And I'm sure Bush counted on that. Tell someone something, then cause a big commotion somewhere else. Then act like what you said to begin with is unquestioned fact, and hope no one notices.

As I have laid out on the forum before, there are actually quite a few suspicious facts about 9/11 which might lead a person to believe that Al-Quaida, far from being behind the twin tower attack, instead is being used as a dupe. Why is no one interested in this any longer? Why do people just roll over and accept whatever nonsense the government tells them?

Anyway, Colin Powell better come up with something more convincing than Bush's last speech, or Tony's dossier.

If he doesn't, the fig leaf will fall and we might see more than we want to.



Edited by - Hadrianus on 02/04/2003 7:52:54 PM
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backchat
Galactic Member

527 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2003 :  9:23:37 PM  Show Profile Send backchat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes had, its about to happen, my daughter is being shipped out this Sunday. God help them all.

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Gerbil
Galactic Member

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2003 :  5:31:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit Gerbil's Homepage Send Gerbil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im not catholic or what ever but where has the pope been on all of this, dosnt he usully pop by to say I CONDONE this and you all will burn in hell? I wonder what he'll say about America invading Iraq, or maybe he'll stay quiet till something bad happens then get his damn 2 cents in. I wouldnt hate the pope so much if he wernt so old. Not to pope bash or anything but im sure the catholic people have lost some faith having such an old guy up there all the time. Can a Women be pope? that would be too cool, Score with the pope. hahah My goal in life, have sex with the first female pope

If you belive then what else do you need?
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