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Elrick
Galactic Member



USA
5831 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  10:12:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit Elrick's Homepage Send Elrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grey

I always find it laughable that people think Alien society would be like ours. It's also fun to hear people say:
"Aliens couldn't live on [insert planet here] it's atmosphere isn't breathable, it's too hot, it's too cold."

It's ridiculous to think humans will have a physiology even remotely similar to humans. The example I always give them is:
"We couldn't live underwater, yet fish do."

On the subject of Atlantis, and technology being lost. It's not in human nature just to "lose" technology. It rarely happens, the only example I can think of is the medieval period including the dark ages after the Roman Empire.

Can't think of any others though.




I guess since everyone else is throwing in their 2 cents, I might as well too, lol.

The reason you can't think of any (technology being lost)Grey is because you are likely unaware of any and you are not going back nearly far enough. With this current age of man, you wont see a loss of technology. It would be highly irregular, especially within the same age of man, unless catastrophic events occured that nearly wiped them out. What you see here is more of a stalled, slow build back towards technology. And if you were to know about it then it wouldn't truly be "lost". What we see with the current civilization is more of a withholding of technology and information. Technology is usually lost only when an entire race is nearly wiped out (nobody or few left with adequate knowledge to carry on the technology). Technology is lost when entire civilizations fall.

This current version of man has stiffled it's own growth because they are a species ruled by fear. The ego-self is a big hindrence as well. You also have self-imposed control factors in place that restrict your progression (at times even reversing it). We can find evidence of the destruction and withholding of knowledge and the developement of secret advanced technology behind the scenes, but you wont find a loss of technology without comparing this age of man to a previous one. Trying to find a loss of technology within the same age is rather unlikely. It is highly probable that all knowledge of the previous age of man was lost with the burning of the great Library of Alexandria. There may be some remnants remaining of the previous age, in Egypt but you are not allowed access to that information so for now, it might as well not even exist.

Now onto the other very fascinating subject that is being discussed. Would aliens look like us or not look like us? This is a very hard question to ponder given the restraints of current human knowledge. You dont know enough about life/creation/existence to adequately evaluate this question. Too much information is still missing and humans often fill in the missing parts with gibberish until forced to concede. Most still just give credit to some enigmatic source that has never been seen or truly defined. Unfortunately this has kept you from finding some of those missing pieces that would better help you ponder this question. As it were, there are too many misconceptions found within the current world paradigm to get an accurate assessment of "what it's all about".

Instead of going into a long rant and all of the silly things man has done, and is still doing, lets just play with a few ideas for a moment. What if the universe was seeded with intelligent life, or rather an intelligent design? Suppose the height of that form is a universal design. Then suppose that the more a species or consciousness moves or evolves towards that design, the more they assume the form of the end design. Lets also assume for a moment that not every form or pattern/design is on the same evolutionary path or purpose. Lets suppose that some forms serve a different purpose for various levels of consciousness. At the base or start (lowest level) of consciousness you have many many different unique forms. But as you move closer and closer to the other end (highest level of conscious being) you find fewer and fewer of these unique forms. At the very end of the scale you may find just one form (or in the least, very few different forms). Now assume that we dont exactly know what the end form is (perhaps a pure energy/consciousness form) but we find intelligent species at different stages in their evolutionary path, all slowly moving towards this universal design.

What we refer to or think of as the human form may not necessarily be "human" at all. If the form is not unique to you and you are not the first to follow this design, then the design is not yours originally. Comparing a cockroach's evolution to an intelligence evolution is not adequate. It's like comparing a rock to a tree...totally different purpose and function. The shark form has existed since before the first age of man, yet it has remained relatively unchanged, much like the cockroach. It provides a stage in the evolutionary process but is not specifically geared towards intelligence or physical evolution. The form serves a more simple function and therefore requires very little change.

What if on the way up the evolutionary ladder, you go through a bipedal form we tend to assossiate with the human form? If this were the case, then we might see many different types of intelligent beings with similar designs (head, 2 arms, 2 legs, etc...). That's not to say that the biped form is the only form of intelligence that can evolve. It is just saying that it is the most common in this part of the universe, for this stage of development. Dinosaurs ruled this world for 65 million years (according to man's current knowledge) and even in them we see a bipedal form emerging when comparing early species to latter species. So perhaps in this sector of the galaxy, the bipedal form is a common stage for a species to eventually go through. If this is at all the case then I would expect to see many other types of intelligent beings that had a similar form to that of mans, but all at slightly different stages in their evolution.

You are missing some major pieces of information. Not knowing how life was seeded in this sector of the universe is a main hindrance to evaluating the likelihood of the human form being found throughout, not just on Earth. Oh crap. I will stop now. I ended up ranting on and on even though I said I wouldn't, lol. There is much more I could say but I must exercise some restraint. Besides, it might not be the best idea to bore you with the thoughts of a fanciful mind with too much time on it's hands. Sorry, hope you skipped this post, hehe. My ramblings are often just that....ramblings. I sometimes start with just a point and an explosion goes off and before I know it, I have a small book in front of me. I guess I am incapable of totally avoiding these long rants. Ok, I'm not looking. You can laugh at me now. I dont mind. Lessons in humility are like the return of a long lost friend.




"For the devout believer, no evidence is necessary. For the devout skeptic, no evidence will suffice."

Edited by - Elrick on 11/24/2009 10:45:20 AM
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Grey
Galactic Member



Spain
646 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  12:19:34 PM  Show Profile Send Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoy reading your long posts El, so it's quite alright with me.

To think that the biped form is higher than, say, a quadroped, or even a solid form whatsoever is not correct. It may be higher up on the evolutionary ladder on Earth, but on other planets it may well be the reverse, and that bipeds evolved into quadropeds, and so on.

You have a good point about the technology issue, but I can't believe that there would be one, and only one copy of that technology. If a species that was capable of space travel came to Earth, and helped us, would we simply let that technology go? I doubt it, it's the same with other technologies. Of course, technologies are created and tested that the public never see, but I don't think that we would let all of them go.

This will sweep around to the first issue again, as perhaps humans who had control of the technology left the planet, and they're the aliens such as Nordics we see now. Still, there's too much information we don't know at the moment to fill in the gaps, and all we can do is make educated guesses.

Obviam Machina
-------------------------
"It's not just idle fact, it's cold hard speculation"
---------------------------------------------------------
"And all, but Lust, is turned to dust
In Humanity's machine."
-Oscar Wilde, The ballad of Reading Gaol.

---------------------------------------------------------
"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." - Che Guevara.
---------------------------------------------------------
"As long as I breathe I hope. As long as I breathe I shall fight for the future." -Leon Trotsky
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Rob Mc
Galactic Member



Ireland
602 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  1:05:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
haha, doesn't anyone else find it a bit convenient that the aliens are walking among us, BUT, we can't tell them apart from humans.lol. What a ridiculious thing to say. Thats like saying aliens exist, but are invisible.....

We are the resistance!
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HumanAlien
Galactic Member



USA
3821 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  1:40:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit HumanAlien's Homepage Send HumanAlien a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rob:

That's the story being told to us by people that use to be in the
military/government but it's up to each one of us if we want to
believe this or not.

Like i said, this isn't proof of anything but rather another piece
of the puzzle.

------------------------------------------------------------




You Are A Spirit Having A Human Experience!
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Elrick
Galactic Member



USA
5831 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  1:44:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Elrick's Homepage Send Elrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm, some good points grey. And thank you for saying you enjoy reading the long posts. I have a few things that are incompatible with some of your statements but that does not in the least indicate any incorrectness. You know me, I have to present the "other side" as it were. So let's begin. The following is my current perspective (or rather what comes to mind when I think about this) so it's relevance is only for consideration.

I dont see why a species would evolve backwards on any planet, for any situation that could still be considered "evolving" (especially when you factor in why species evolve). Returning to "all fours" as it were, would be a step back. And if it is not "returning" to all fours then it would imply that a species started upright and naturally evolved to crawl on the ground (opposite of what you see on Earth). This is illogical. Think of the human development (one life cycle) as a minor reflection of evolutionary progression. The early stages of human development, as a baby learning to crawl, then eventually walk, and perhaps even some day...fly , are a mirror of natural evolution in a third density physical reality in this particular class of galaxy. Every part seems a reflection of the whole.

I like some of your ideas on technology. Here is the problem in my mind though....This planet is billions of years old. It has changed many many times and has seen many many different stages of life. You are only aware of a minute fraction of what has occured here. This planet's life has likely been destroyed many times. During times of great change in the environment which can occur for any number of reasons, starts the "forced evolution". If the evolution does not occur or is not enough to overcome the change, or if the change occurs to quickly...the species does not survive and life is forced to take on another form. You have no idea of how far back the first intelligent species evolved on this world with the capability for what you would call technology. But technology can develop in many different forms but we wont get into that right now.

I am trying to not let this post exceed an acceptible length but I would just like to say that this planet is very very old. We should not assume that intelligent life is something new to it. Lets say for a moment that our current civilization were to suddenly disappear and say that even all life was destroyed on the planet, for whatever reason. Then the planet sits domant for a very long time. Dormant through millions of years of climate changes, geographical changes, storms, erosion, solar forces, spacial energies, etc... Then suddenly, it happens again! A little spark of life starts to glimmer. It's not much at first but if allowed to grow, it could one day become something much more then the sum of its parts. Then this life eventually evolves enough to develop a basic level of intelligence and understanding of the world around it. By this time, would there even be anything left of the technology that existed ages ago? Would this new cycle of life know anything of the previous? Would it even be able to recognize it if it were still around?

Now lets assume that this has happened not once, but several times. Records do not last forever, apparently, even when written in stone. How much time would the world need to recover from the destruction humans have caused and for their buildings and technology to have faded to dust, if man were to suddenly disappear? Would it take hundreds of years for mans technology to be either buried or dissolved? Thousands? How about a million? Once you decide on an acceptable number for that, then consider it is likely but a blink of an eye on the evolutionary scale of just this one planet alone. This is all without the need to factor is any alien interventions and does not factor in what occurs after a race reaches a level of technology that allows them to go beyond their original home world. In this scenario, it is just assumed that life evolved to a level high enough to build structures, develop a civilazation, etc...then something terrible happens or they destroy themselvs and then eons later, when conditions are right, it all starts over again.

The problem here though is that most current humans' world paradigm is that they believe they are the first to have this occur and that it has not occured many many times before and on other worlds and in other places in the universe, and perhaps even in other universes. The acknowledgement of advanced nonhuman intelligences would change all of that though. But until that time, it is very difficult for the human mind to think in those terms. It does not fit with your world view and would require a shift in your paradigm. Information that is lacking would need be supplied. Truths would need be revealed. The acknowledgement that we are not alone will change all of this and that is why it is so important....but also why its secrecy is guarded so closely.

Maybe we don't need aliens (I really dislike that term) coming down to convince us that we are not unique, that the universe is full of life. Maybe planets only get one shot at intelligent life and if they blow it, then that's it. Maybe this planet is unique and the only one to have ever developed intelligent life in the first place. But I see no real reason to assume that either is true. Perhaps there is evidence of a previous civilization that is unknown to us. Can you think of anything that might be a faint glimmer of a previous age seperated from us by time? I bet you can. I should go now. I seem way too chatty today. I cannot stop talking. I'm going to go try to find a distraction.


"For the devout believer, no evidence is necessary. For the devout skeptic, no evidence will suffice."

Edited by - Elrick on 11/24/2009 2:10:07 PM
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Grey
Galactic Member



Spain
646 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  2:01:46 PM  Show Profile Send Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is developing into an incredibly interesting topic, combining my love of biology with my interest in aliens.

What makes you think that the biped form is a better form than the quadroped form? It is for Earth, but the theory of evolution dictates that living beings change to adapt to their surroundings, so, perhaps an alien species living on a planet, were bipeds once, but as situations changed, it was more advantageous to be a quadroped. Who knows why? Perhaps they needed increased speed, or needed other skills, that a biped cannot possess.

Obviam Machina
-------------------------
"It's not just idle fact, it's cold hard speculation"
---------------------------------------------------------
"And all, but Lust, is turned to dust
In Humanity's machine."
-Oscar Wilde, The ballad of Reading Gaol.

---------------------------------------------------------
"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." - Che Guevara.
---------------------------------------------------------
"As long as I breathe I hope. As long as I breathe I shall fight for the future." -Leon Trotsky
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Elrick
Galactic Member



USA
5831 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  2:36:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Elrick's Homepage Send Elrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking in terms of building technology. Certain things have to occur to lead you to the place where you are even able to make tools, let alone build advanced technology. And if they were biped to begin with, they must have started at some point on the ground and learned to stand. I am missing the information that would make the opposite seem possible. This form does not do well on all fours. The form would have to change for there to be advantages to going back to all fours for us. We are not faster or anything. It is more of a disadvantage is most areas. But assuming that the species has 4 appendiges (more then 4 requires a different approach) then you would need to use at least one of them for basic functions other then movement, likely 2 of them.

If all of your life consist of just movement and grazing off the ground, then there would be no need to be on 2 legs and 4 would definately be more advantageous. But if you are destined for more, I would think that certain thing would have to occur to make this possible. While on four legs, it would be very hard to build anything. You would have to carry everything in your mouth. Height is an advantage for any species. Not necessarily how tall you are, but your ability to access things that are high or high areas through the use of tools or your own body. Then if you factor in whether you accept that there might be some form of intelligent design to the universe, it makes very much sense why life might develop similarly, but for this we are assuming that there is no intelligent design or are not factoring it in.

But on a different note, life may exist in all shapes and forms, that we cannot even image. And there are likely things that need to be factored in that we are unaware of. But my perspective is in dealing primarily with life as we know it. You may be right in that there are worlds were there are intelligent species that spend most of their time on all fours, but I would suspect that they had more then just four legs that they would use for making things. Isn't speculation such fun? We could go on all day considering the possibilities. It's quite enjoyable. You give me things to think about.



"For the devout believer, no evidence is necessary. For the devout skeptic, no evidence will suffice."

Edited by - Elrick on 11/24/2009 2:38:29 PM
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Grey
Galactic Member



Spain
646 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  2:57:25 PM  Show Profile Send Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, it is incredibly interesting. You make a good point about standing is neccesary to build for example. An example I could give is:
There is a world where the gravity or terrain is different, and so that it is neccesary for a species to walk on all fours, for at least most of the time. This wouldn't limit their intelligence however. Perhaps they could stand on 2 legs for a limited time, when it is neccesary, but, going into the study of development, rather than biology, it could be that their tools or methods of building are optimised for quadropeds. So many possibilities...

Obviam Machina
-------------------------
"It's not just idle fact, it's cold hard speculation"
---------------------------------------------------------
"And all, but Lust, is turned to dust
In Humanity's machine."
-Oscar Wilde, The ballad of Reading Gaol.

---------------------------------------------------------
"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." - Che Guevara.
---------------------------------------------------------
"As long as I breathe I hope. As long as I breathe I shall fight for the future." -Leon Trotsky

Edited by - Grey on 11/24/2009 2:58:25 PM
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Rob Mc
Galactic Member



Ireland
602 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  3:11:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe they do stand upright but still have 4 legs,lol, did ye think of that?

We are the resistance!
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Grey
Galactic Member



Spain
646 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  3:15:36 PM  Show Profile Send Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's what we are isn't it?

I mean,an arm is basically a leg with a grasper on it.

Obviam Machina
-------------------------
"It's not just idle fact, it's cold hard speculation"
---------------------------------------------------------
"And all, but Lust, is turned to dust
In Humanity's machine."
-Oscar Wilde, The ballad of Reading Gaol.

---------------------------------------------------------
"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." - Che Guevara.
---------------------------------------------------------
"As long as I breathe I hope. As long as I breathe I shall fight for the future." -Leon Trotsky
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Brandon Dennis
Galactic Member



USA
1511 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  6:28:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ha, I was about to say the same thing, Rob. I once read this nice little series (when I was a youngin') called Animorphs. There was an alien species in it (forgot what they were called), that were deer-shaped, had two arms with 7 fingers on each hand, had humanoid faces (slits for nostrils, no mouth, and had two extra eyes on the top of their hand that could look around in all directions), had to ability to transform into any animal that they've touched, and also had a scythe-like tail that they could move extremely quickly to cut their enemies. Of course, this is all fantasy but every single one of those things could be a result of evolutionary need. Perhaps an animal who is destined for greatness, as Elrick said, was under constant war from another animal on their planet and needed to outrun them. Evolution could easily cause that animal to have four legs PLUS two arms and intelligence.

The state is not armed with superior wit or honesty, but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If a Nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be... if we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed." ~ Thomas Jefferson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you want peace prepare for war." ~ Vegetius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We may stand alone.....but we stand alone together" ~ Brandon Dennis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My MSN messenger: Mr.BrandonDennis@gmail.com
My email address: Mr.BrandonDennis@gmail.com
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calperia
Galactic Member



USA
1571 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  7:20:21 PM  Show Profile Send calperia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow!

I give you guys A+ grades for interesting and thought-provoking discourse!

El: You can rant and rave all you like, as far as I'm concerned! I really enjoy the way you present your thoughts, and it amazes me how much we think alike in many areas. You are a deep thinker, and you keep such an honest, open mind...well, it's like a breath of fresh air!

Grey: I still have a hard time believing you're as young as you are. I guess maybe you're an "Old Soul" among us, eh? What's so wonderful, in my mind anyway, is that we have young people like you and Daan and Brandon, who are intelligent, open-minded and mature, and you all contribute so much to this forum. I applaud you!

Brandon: If you ever get a chance to read Across a Billion Years (by Robert Silverburg), I think you will enjoy it. It is one of my all-time favorite Sci-Fi novels from "way back when." It may be hard to find now, I'm not sure. I haven't done a Google search for it, so I don't know if it's still in print or not.

Great discussion again, One & All!

Your Pal,
Cal
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Rob Mc
Galactic Member



Ireland
602 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  7:22:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon Dennis

Ha, I was about to say the same thing, Rob. I once read this nice little series (when I was a youngin') called Animorphs. There was an alien species in it (forgot what they were called), that were deer-shaped, had two arms with 7 fingers on each hand, had humanoid faces (slits for nostrils, no mouth, and had two extra eyes on the top of their hand that could look around in all directions), had to ability to transform into any animal that they've touched, and also had a scythe-like tail that they could move extremely quickly to cut their enemies. Of course, this is all fantasy but every single one of those things could be a result of evolutionary need. Perhaps an animal who is destined for greatness, as Elrick said, was under constant war from another animal on their planet and needed to outrun them. Evolution could easily cause that animal to have four legs PLUS two arms and intelligence.

The state is not armed with superior wit or honesty, but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If a Nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be... if we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed." ~ Thomas Jefferson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you want peace prepare for war." ~ Vegetius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We may stand alone.....but we stand alone together" ~ Brandon Dennis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My MSN messenger: Mr.BrandonDennis@gmail.com
My email address: Mr.BrandonDennis@gmail.com



haha, oh my God, animorphs was amazing!! I used to watch the tv series of it years and years ago, in fact im gonna try and find it now,lol

We are the resistance!
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Elrick
Galactic Member



USA
5831 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  10:47:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Elrick's Homepage Send Elrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Animorphs was cool. Do you know of a show that was much earlier called Manimal? It was just this one guy who could change into different animals. Sheena is another who had this ability. You may remember a movie and series. One of the Wonder Twins also had the ability to change into different animals. It's a re-occuring theme. That would be so awesome if you could tranform into any form you wished at will. Four legs and two arms might be fun as well. Oh to be a centaur....

...And thank you for such kind words dear Cal.

"For the devout believer, no evidence is necessary. For the devout skeptic, no evidence will suffice."

Edited by - Elrick on 11/24/2009 10:52:19 PM
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Grey
Galactic Member



Spain
646 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2009 :  08:29:08 AM  Show Profile Send Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And yet another possibility, a quadroped with 2 arms. Increased speed and agility with the advantages of a biped.


I'd also like to say thanks for the kind words Cal.

I vaguely remember animorphs, but not too much sadly.

Obviam Machina
-------------------------
"It's not just idle fact, it's cold hard speculation"
---------------------------------------------------------
"And all, but Lust, is turned to dust
In Humanity's machine."
-Oscar Wilde, The ballad of Reading Gaol.

---------------------------------------------------------
"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." - Che Guevara.
---------------------------------------------------------
"As long as I breathe I hope. As long as I breathe I shall fight for the future." -Leon Trotsky
Go to Top of Page
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